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 plumbing in a wood burner with back boiler 
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Joined: 22 Mar 2009, 09:52
Posts: 313
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Michael, please explain how a pipe thermostat would do the job of the laddomat gadget. The laddomat thing costs almost 600 quid and that is more than the cost of my 2nd hand stove, manifold, pumps, rads, thermostats, acctuators, pipe, etc put together.


30 Jun 2010, 22:06
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Joined: 29 Jun 2010, 10:45
Posts: 22
Location: Alles-sur-Dordogne
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Hi Ben,

You can get a Laddomat for around 200GBP. I can pm details to you if you wish.

For the pipe thermostat - it is fitted to ensure that the pump does not run until the water temperature has reached the required temperature to avoid the corrosion of the stove due to the condensation which can occur if the return temperature is too low.

Hope this answers your question.

Michael


30 Jun 2010, 22:34
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Joined: 22 Mar 2009, 09:52
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Michael, even £200 would hurt if theres an easier way.
If my stove is gravity feeding a thermal store (an old 200 litre chauffe eau) the pumps are on the outputs from the store not on the stove and the return temperature is whatever it is.
I think I understand the theory of the Laddomat but can't see how pipe stats would do its job.
Is the risk of corrosion high? Am I missing something? Is it too late and I should think about it in the morning?


30 Jun 2010, 23:31
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Joined: 16 Feb 2005, 23:25
Posts: 56
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I must be a bit thick or something - I just can't get my head round this. Can someone explain why it is not good to have water returning to the boiler at too low a temperatute?
The boiler contains water (containing inhibitor), the water at whatever temperatute circulates and returns - how do you create condensation in a vessel full of water?
Confused.


01 Jul 2010, 10:51
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Joined: 02 Jul 2007, 19:05
Posts: 455
Location: Vienne 86
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Hi petercw,

The condensation will form on the outside of the water jacket of the boiler, if the water in the jacket is cool.

The same effect can be observed if you put a pan of cold water on a gas burner. Condensation forms on the outside of the pan until the water in the pan warms up.

Michael


01 Jul 2010, 17:53
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Joined: 18 Aug 2007, 01:40
Posts: 132
Location: les eyzies, Dordogne
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Well i am glad i am not the only one who was confused about all this. I think i am getting there.

I will run all water from the wood burner to a tri energy balon echanger, this will allow me to add solar for the summer months.I will use 28mm copper pipe for this and the expasion pipe. Between the wood burner and the balon will be a heat sink radiator.

When the water leaves the balon it will go from 28mm to a manifold 26x34 to 15x21 to heat the radiators using 16mm per pipe. We will have 3 radiator feed and return loops on this manifold to three zones which will receive water at the same time.The return manifold will go back to the boiler.We thought that doing it this way would warm the rooms more evenly to start with.We will put a thermostat on the both outlet and inlet pipe to the woodburner to avoid condensation problem. might even look at this laddomat 21 thing. I was hoping that in the event of a power cut the system should run via thermo syphon as even though the pipe coming out of the boiler is reduced to a smaller manifold, if all three valves on the mahifold are open, the water should be able to move round,(might be completely wrong on this, if no thermo syphon will a generator run the pump ok.Would like to put thermostats on the rads just to control the heat a bit more

The hot water will also come from the boiler into per pipes, we can run most of this either in the floor or behind the plasterboard and all per will be in gaine.

In the summer when the wood burner is off we are hoping the solar will be good enough for the hotwater supply, not sure about what size we need but don't need to get my head round that yet as it is still recovering from looking into the heating.

When the water leaves the echanger does it need a three way valve or are there multiple exits onit.

Thanks for explaining the condensation issue, i understand this much better.

So, what do you think, have i got there yet :D
Love ginette


01 Jul 2010, 23:14
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Joined: 22 Mar 2009, 09:52
Posts: 313
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I still dont quite get the pipestat thing.
If the flow from boiler is open bcos the waters hot but the return is closed bcos the waters cold how can it circulate? If only the hots got a pipestat then how do you prevent condensation?
If theres a heat dump rad between the boiler and the store won't all the heat just be dumped rather than stored?
Can anyone post any schematics?


02 Jul 2010, 00:04
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Joined: 02 Jul 2007, 19:05
Posts: 455
Location: Vienne 86
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This link has schematics for wood burning boilers. It is in french and the three systems shown are all sealed systems.

Google translator does a reasonable job of translating it into english, if you have a fair understanding of the plumbing principles.

http://pagesperso-orange.fr/herve.silve/schemasbois.htm

Michael


02 Jul 2010, 00:29
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Joined: 02 Jul 2007, 19:05
Posts: 455
Location: Vienne 86
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Hi babychoccake

Before you know the pipe sizes to use, you need to do other calculations.

The first thing to do is to work out the heat losses from each room to be heated. With this information you can find out the sizes of radiators needed in each room, and the size of the boiler to supply enough heat to these radiators. You will also have to allow sufficient output from the boiler to heat the domestic hot water.

When you know the size of each radiator, you can calculate the size of pipes required to supply heat to those radiators. Calculation tables are available to work out the frictional losses in the pipes due to pipe diameter, length and fittings. (see link)

After you have the frictional losses for the pipes, you will be able to select a suitable circulating pump.

If the pipes are too small then you won’t get enough heat at the radiators, or the water velocity will be too high and cause noise. If the velocity is very high it can lead to erosion of the pipe walls. If the pipes are too large, the water velocity can be too low leading to sludge settling out in the pipes.

This link will give you information on sizing copper pipes for heating installations. Please remember these are British pipe sizes. French copper pipes have thicker walls so the inside diameter will be smaller for the same size pipe.

http://www.copperinfo.co.uk/plumbing-he ... ystems.pdf

Michael


02 Jul 2010, 01:16
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Joined: 18 Aug 2007, 01:40
Posts: 132
Location: les eyzies, Dordogne
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Michael, what a star!!! Thank you. I had worked out the rad sizes and pipework sizing using a website and the Leroy Merlin catalogue. I wasn't aware of the water speed effects, so this info is great to know.The schematics will be super i will take a look later and see what other questions i need to ask.There is so much more to this than i originally thought,I have never installed a full system using a wood burner before, just maintained and repaired ols electric or gas systems (changing 3 wayvalves/thermocoupling/radiators etc.

Thanks again for taking the time to help.
Love ginette


02 Jul 2010, 07:22
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Joined: 04 Feb 2004, 18:51
Posts: 535
Location: Hautefort 24
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This is the usual way to achieve what you want - very expensive
http://www.cashin-france.com/images/schema.gif


03 Jul 2010, 10:04
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Joined: 18 Aug 2007, 01:40
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Location: les eyzies, Dordogne
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Charles you are an absolute star, this is just what i ahave been looking for.Along with all the other info i have had i hope to get to grips with it.
Thanks


03 Jul 2010, 21:12
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Joined: 08 Jul 2008, 21:19
Posts: 165
Hi Babychocake about time you gave your readers an update on how your getting on with your project and any pitfalls or pluses youve come up against also cost and savings if any ?.
regards red


28 Jul 2010, 22:55
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Joined: 18 Aug 2007, 01:40
Posts: 132
Location: les eyzies, Dordogne
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Hi Redcasser

Our project is going well thanks. We fitted the plastic PER pipes for plumbing in the rads from the woodburner and all the electric pre-wired gaine for the plugs co-ax etc. Then we ordered our ready mix self levelling concrete. Well, this is how it went.....

Went to Point P in St Cyprien. Guy came round to visit the site. Loads of head shaking and teeth sucking as the house is a bit tricky for access. It is on an 8m high rocky outcrop with little road below.The road that leads up to the house is steep, ok for normal cement trucks but self levelling cement would just slop out the back.


He mentioned a pump truck with added pipes etc as the closest he could get would be 35m. He said he would come back the following day with the pump truck driver to check it out.Meanwhile he would send through a devi. We needed 15m3 as have two floors to lay 14m x 5m and 5m x 5m.The slab is minimum 12cm deep and in some places it is 20cm.

Well sure enough the devi came through, 3 of them infact, for different combinations of lorries and pump etc.The cost for the 3 different devis were all similar at €3400!!!

Pump man phoned the following morning to arrange to come and see if he could get his pump truck to the house.He arranged to come at 10.30 am and all being well he would come again at 2.30 when the 3 cement trucks would bring the cement. He arrives at 10.30 and has a good look around.Parks his HUGE pump truck in the middle of the road (blocking it completely) and starts to lift the 30m pump arm up to the house 8m above him.
he smiles when the arm goes through the window without a prublem and then switches off his engine.I ask him if he plans to block the road for the next 4 hours as the cement arrives at 2.30, when his smile gets bigger and he tells me the cement is coming now.

Time to panic!!!! We had planned to pop to Sarlat that morning to pick up a vibrating ruler to level the concrete better, but we now had no time for this.The guy from point p arrives (with a tamper bar in his boot luckily) and confrimed the 3 cement trucks were due in 5 minutes.No time to close the road or get people to help divert the traffic!!!No time to get friends in to help!!! Infact i hadn't even accepted the devi yet!!!

It actually went really well. The pump guy was far from careful with this extra sloppy cement that came out almost llike custard.We were pleased we had covered the stone walls a metre up from the ground to protect them.The cement was so easy to lay.We had marked or finished slab hieght with plastic strips, screwed to the stone with inox screws. Pump man just wiggled his pipe and walked the concrete into the corners of the room.Once the cement was roughly level we just tamped it up and down, hard to start with and then gentle to from a very flat finish.Sprayed chemical (supplied by Point P) and hey presto all done.It took roughly two hours in all and that included clearlong up about a cubic meter of cement the pump guy had kindly dumped at the side of the road when cleaning his truck!!!

Would definitely use self levelling again, we don't need a screed now so we can just tile straight on top..Only thing i would do differently is i wouldn't use bits of polystyrene to support my steel mesh.It has worked fine before with normal concrete but the self levelling is too sloppy and we had a few bits float to the top which we gad to keep picking up.

I am now building the parpaing extention but will go back to the main building soon.
With regards to the plumbing, we decided to go for PER compression fittings for the rad pipework (apart from the 28mm copper piping we will use to connect the woodburner to the thermal store. The Per was fkexible enough to allow as to put the pipes in for several rads without having joints in the floor. We went for compression as it was roughly the same price as push fit but i have a bit of a mental block on push fit fittings.I have visions of them all just popping apart. :D

Will keep you posted.


28 Jul 2010, 23:57
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Joined: 08 Jul 2008, 21:19
Posts: 165
Hi ,glad it all went well for you brought back memories when my dad had a concrete pumping company my brother was sent to wormwoodscrubs the guard took his fags then said when you want one ask and i give it to you a bit puzzling for the brother at the time anyway after the pour was done my brother asked where he could wash out as he still had 2 metres left in the hopper the guard said where you are mate but it will make a right mess
oh dont worry about that said the guard the guys in here have got the rest of there lives to clear it up .oh and yes plastic fittings have got a habit of popping off exept for osma gold.
happy tiling red


30 Jul 2010, 01:01
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