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 do we need to register to animals 
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Joined: 03 Mar 2009, 13:41
Posts: 14
Hello all

We are hoping to keep a couple of pigs, goats, and some chickens and geese all for our own consumption ,do we need to register to keep them?


23 May 2009, 11:20
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Joined: 11 Oct 2006, 20:49
Posts: 93
Location: Fresselines, dept. 23
hello
You will need to contact the chambre d'agriculture if you want to keep pigs and goats. I just had to put on a piece of paper my name and address and what animals I wanted. In my case sheep. They weren't interested in my geese, guinea fowl etc.
Hope this helps.


23 May 2009, 12:26
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Joined: 03 Mar 2009, 13:41
Posts: 14
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Thanks for the information


25 May 2009, 10:05
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Joined: 31 Jul 2007, 19:45
Posts: 2178
Location: beauville 47470
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cloven hooved interests them most I think


25 May 2009, 21:40
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Joined: 17 Oct 2003, 23:48
Posts: 544
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You need to register sheep, Goats and pigs. They need numbers which tear from thier ears at the slightest obstacle. The Sheep and goats need blood tests all costing money. Least said soonest forgotten about if you get my drift.


19 Jan 2010, 17:57
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Joined: 23 Oct 2008, 19:10
Posts: 37
I guess you would have to register cattle as well?
Has anyone brought any into France but not been living on a registered farm? We would like to do this, just a handful of pedigree ones but cannot find out if we would need to register as a farm to do this.
whilst, I believe it is easy to do so, it would then make MSA or cotisations payable.
If I've got the story wrong, please let me know.
Thanks.


20 Jan 2010, 17:00
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Joined: 03 Mar 2004, 18:00
Posts: 2764
Location: Southern Manche - 50... on a south-facing hillside, overlooking la vallée de la Sée...
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Kontiki wrote:
You need to register sheep, Goats and pigs. They need numbers which tear from thier ears at the slightest obstacle. The Sheep and goats need blood tests all costing money. Least said soonest forgotten about if you get my drift.

Borg, while you may choose to take Kontiki's advice, some departements will only administer blue tongue vaccinations to registered flocks, even if the flock is two sheep or a few goats. So if you choose not to register your animals - as suggested by Kontiki - you run the risk of not being able to get the right treatments or medications for them at the right time.

Then, when the freezer moment looms, you may not be able to get them slaughtered at the abbatoir as, increasingly, abbatoirs are not taking untagged animals for slaughter. There are still mobile abbatoirs in some areas but you need to be able to bury or otherwise dispose of the guts of the animal which can be substantial if you've a large animal.

In addition, registration for a holding or cheptel number is - in Manche anyway - only about 23€ per year and, amongst other things, we get regular updates relating to health requirements, changes in registration regulations etc. You don't have to put the tags in the ears providing you know which sheep / goat / pig you've allocated the tags to but you can insert them if you need to - in an ideal world, just before the abbatoir trip if that's how they'll end up in your freezer.

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20 Jan 2010, 17:26
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Joined: 27 Aug 2009, 23:55
Posts: 149
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It is illegal for any lamb or kid over 6 months of age not to have eartags in their ears,if they come and visit which they are know to,you will either end up with a fine or worst event the lamb will be taken away to be slaughtered!!!!!!!!!
The same will happen if they find out anyone has sheep or goats that are not registered and come on there aint any real excuse not to be it is not hard to do and you dont pay anything straight away.
They should be double tagged if going to be kept for breeding aswell.


20 Jan 2010, 18:42
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Joined: 17 Oct 2003, 23:48
Posts: 544
peut-etre wrote:
I guess you would have to register cattle as well?
Has anyone brought any into France but not been living on a registered farm? We would like to do this, just a handful of pedigree ones but cannot find out if we would need to register as a farm to do this.
whilst, I believe it is easy to do so, it would then make MSA or cotisations payable.
If I've got the story wrong, please let me know.
Thanks.


Yes you do and I believe the minimum start fee to MSA is €3000.00 and thats without making a profit, also beware if it doesnt work read some other posts on here that let you know that you dont just cancel when it does not work out. There could also be a limit to the number of cows without MSA. For example chickens I believe is above 50

All the advise on here is sound of course and 2heads is very correct.

In fact whilst this subject has been running my sons dear Goat fell ill this afternoon and died before the vet could ev en get here, if they had not been ear tagged although in the draw, I would have not really been able to call him out. However when I did first call him out some years back he asked for my cheptel number, I of course explained that the goat was for personal use only, it did not matter I still had to register, they are not the friendliest people in the world but they did understnd.

It works out cheaper to buy your milk but its not the same achivement accomplished.

I am all for animal care etc but I feel that there really are too many regulations for smallholding or self sufficient persons. I also know many french who think the same and dont register. So you have the choice but if you get caught, well, its not that hard to be ingnorant is it.


20 Jan 2010, 20:23
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Joined: 25 Mar 2008, 14:25
Posts: 2581
Location: Dordogne
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Hi,
rules and regs relating to animal health, identification and tracability are in force for a reason. The mountains of paperwork,eartagging etc have not been created to annoy potential stock keepers, it is there to protect the majority of farmers who keep livestock as their means of earning a living.

In the event of an outbreak of a notifiable disease, individual animal identification, movement papers etc are key elements in the control and containment of a disease. In the worst case scenario, when animals have to be destroyed, the fact that they are identifiable by an ear tag means, the farmer will be compensated for his loss. If you own a small flock of unidentified sheep/goats and they get foot and mouth for example, they will be destroyed anyway, you as the stock holder will get to pay all the costs involved, pay a fine and get zero compensation.

Anyone can keep a few poultry and rabbits for home consumption without any paperwork. By starting with a few of these, the potential small holder can get the feel of "farming" with minimal outlay.

If you want a couple of goats and no more than two pigs to fatten, no need to register as a farm or smallholding with the MSA but, you will need to comply with rules and regs for sheep and goats via the chamber of Ag and the DDSV. There is no legal way round it.

One final thought, many folk seem lured by the idyllic ideas of smallholding and keeping livestock. Please remember that farming is a 365 day a year occupation, forget leaving them to fend for themselves whilst you go to the seaside for a week or jump on a plane to the UK for a long Christmas break, it is not going to happen!!. You only have to browse the forum and advert section to see how many give up the livestock idea when winter comes, surplus animals that cannot be sold ,and the romance of flower filled summer meadows turn into the muddy reality of a free range pig pen.

kind regards cbp


20 Jan 2010, 21:12
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Joined: 31 Aug 2007, 23:48
Posts: 572
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After reading the posings on the need to register myself with whoever since i keep a few goats........

of went i and as much paperwork as i could to chambre d' agriculture and MSA, explained i now had a few personal use goats etc and was considering getting a few more, did i need paperwork? registration? letter from the pope or what?

the result was :-
MSA = you are too small to be a farm with us, you can choose to join but in your circumstances its not needed and prob' no darn use anyway, so good luck and go see chambre d' agriculteur next door bye bye.

Chambre d agriculteur = take this form to hotel des imports & then come back.......

went to H d Imports....they had no idea what chambre d agriculteur wanted on the form so sent me back to C d Agri..

went back to chambre d agriculteur, who now say since it is not a business I DO NOT NEED TO REGISTER WITH THEM
BUT if i decide to sell any of my animals them i must register, so i asked if i could do it now just in case and got told NO, wait till you want to sell and come back then.

DOES THIS SEEM A BIT BARKING MAD TO ANYONE ELSE, OR JUST TO ME????

if i was of a paranoid nature i would suspect the government offices in france are sponcered by the petrol companies to make the most milage possible used to perform the required paper chases?

BYE


10 Feb 2010, 09:37
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Joined: 25 Mar 2008, 14:25
Posts: 2581
Location: Dordogne
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Hi,
the most important bit of the equation is animal identification and tracability.

Anyone with two goats/sheep and a few hens will never be considered a farmer so, registering as one is a bit pointless as long as the produce is strictly for home consumption.
To register the "humans", one has to proove that farming will be the major form of generating income, then and only then are you of interest to the MSA and tax people.So...

back to the animals.

As per previous posts on here it is the animals that have to be registered with chamber of Ag and DDSV. Those animals include;sheep, goats, cattle and pigs. Poultry and rabbits in small numbers are exempt ( for the moment!!!).

The mud of French (EU) bureaucracy will eventually clear before you, it has only taken me thirty plus years to get this far! :)


kind regards cbp


10 Feb 2010, 11:05
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Joined: 15 Jul 2004, 20:28
Posts: 3766
Location: Noyant D'Allier, Allier
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I think that quite a few people get mixed up betwwen :

a) registering a small flock (sheep, goats, cows, llamas, alpacas etc, non commercial for use as grass cutters or for own personal consumption) which means getting a holding number from the DDE (5 minute job) and making sure that they are all registered and tagged etc. and;

b) those who wish to breed and sell animals,in which case you are then farming and have to go through the whole CofA and MSA process.

Rgds, Mike L

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10 Feb 2010, 13:19
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Joined: 05 Dec 2008, 17:26
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Location: Charente
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mlonghurst wrote:
b) those who wish to breed and sell animals,in which case you are then farming and have to go through the whole CofA and MSA process.

Rgds, Mike L
We were told yesterday that you only need to join MSA if you're a) making a profit (otherwise you're just a 'hobby farm') and b) only need to pay 'solidarity' cotisations if the profit you are making is not your major income.

We have pigs, goats, rabbits (less than 25 breeding does) and various poultry and are only registered as 'detenteurs' with the CofA for the goats and pigs, with holding number and site (d'elevage) numbers but with no siret (or is it siren?) number as they don't class us as a business.

I am still a bit confused because on the docs I got from the local chambre d'agriculture lady, it says only a farmer can legally market their produce. But we're not farmers, apparently, as per the above......


17 Feb 2010, 00:55
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Joined: 15 Jul 2004, 20:28
Posts: 3766
Location: Noyant D'Allier, Allier
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Debnfamily wrote:
mlonghurst wrote:
b) those who wish to breed and sell animals,in which case you are then farming and have to go through the whole CofA and MSA process.

Rgds, Mike L
We were told yesterday that you only need to join MSA if you're a) making a profit (otherwise you're just a 'hobby farm') and b) only need to pay 'solidarity' cotisations if the profit you are making is not your major income.

We have pigs, goats, rabbits (less than 25 breeding does) and various poultry and are only registered as 'detenteurs' with the CofA for the goats and pigs, with holding number and site (d'elevage) numbers but with no siret (or is it siren?) number as they don't class us as a business.

I am still a bit confused because on the docs I got from the local chambre d'agriculture lady, it says only a farmer can legally market their produce. But we're not farmers, apparently, as per the above......


Is there a possiblity that when you spoke with the CofA, they may have thought that you were breeding the animals for your own consumption and not commercialy, beacuse commerical breeders (i.e farmers) all have Siret Numbers and the cottisations we pay to the MSA are not based on profit at all but are payable even if we make a loss. If you are not a business you cannot sell the animals and neither can you sell the meat (you cannot invoice customers with no business or siret number).

We have had two farm businesses in France and on each occassion during the first year we made a loss, primerily due to investment into growing the business, yet we still had to pay full cotisations to the MSA.

It is also not associated with numbers of animals one keeps or the size of your land, as when we first started we only had 11 animals and when we restarted the 2nd farm we had just 3. Our first farm was 12HA and this farm is only 2HA.

We have always been told categorically by the CofA that if you breed animals which graze on the land with the intention of selling them (live or as meat) then you absolutly must registrer as as farmer.

I would be interested in knowing what they would tell you if you went back and said "I am breeding pigs, goats and rabits commericaly, I want to sell the offspring or have them butchered and sell their meat".

Kind Regards, Mike L

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17 Feb 2010, 07:45
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