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 WOOD STOVE TO RUN EIGHT RADIATORS - WHICH? 
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Joined: 20 Jul 2005, 22:15
Posts: 1723
Location: Buxières-les-Mines, 03 Allier
Hello all and yes I know there has been a similar post recently.

I would like to ask if any of you have in the last year or two installed a big wood burner to run around eight radiators, but not to supply domestic hot water.

If so, would you mind telling me firstly, which make and model you chose, and secondly, what you think of its performance this winter?

I would be most grateful for your input on this one.


31 Jan 2008, 21:20
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Joined: 21 May 2004, 20:17
Posts: 6268
Location: Plouasne, Dept 22 & abit further East than Jennie
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How long is a piece of string ??

You must work out your heat load first, before you can make any comparison


31 Jan 2008, 21:44
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Joined: 26 Jun 2006, 20:22
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Location: cornwall and dordogne 24580 nr rouffignac perigord noir 24
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u really need to say the size of the rooms or the size of rads if you have them to get an accurate sizeing of the stove


31 Jan 2008, 21:45
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Joined: 21 May 2004, 20:17
Posts: 6268
Location: Plouasne, Dept 22 & abit further East than Jennie
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Standard stock radiators in stock

single pannel with fins 600mm high from 400mm long to 1.200mm long
Double pannel with fins same sizes as above

Radiators which can be obtained range from300mm high to 900mm high, and up to 3000mm long, and be single pannel, single pannel with fins, double pannel with fins etc, TAKE YOUR PICK WHICH IS STANDARD, to give you an idea of what you are looking for
Heat output can range from 113watts to 10170watts there aint such a thing as two houses with exactly the same heat requirements unless they are a bog standard house on a UK spec buildeing estate


31 Jan 2008, 22:00
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Joined: 31 Aug 2005, 20:25
Posts: 1311
Location: Charente/Limousin border
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Yep, 7 rads (chosen at the right kw/size for the rooms) and a heated towel rail but it supplies domestic hot water too at no extra cost (via a ballon avec serpent) either in terms of heat lost to the rads or extra fuel. It's a dowlingstoves.com Sumo 16kw with wrap-around boiler. Love it. Very pleased. We've put in as much insulation as we can so far (lots of renovation work still to do) and have a traditional half-glazed front door (with a wonderful old heavy lined curtain found at Emmaus) and original single glazed oak windows. We've used quite a lot of wood but have kept it burning 24/7 for a couple of months now.


31 Jan 2008, 23:05
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Joined: 21 May 2004, 20:17
Posts: 6268
Location: Plouasne, Dept 22 & abit further East than Jennie
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rod wrote:
u really need to say the size of the rooms or the size of rads if you have them to get an accurate sizeing of the stove


I dont know why you or I bother Rod, with telling other poster how to size a boiler, it looks like the O P has all ready decided what boiler they want, because in another posting they are asking for it together with a W/C and wash hand basin to be picked up in the UK for delivery to France, I have the feeling that they are happy to let some snotty nosed sprog in B&Q tell them what they should have based on very dodgy tables, rather than time served experianced heating engineers offer them advice on how to size the rooms first then the boiler


01 Feb 2008, 00:16
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Joined: 26 May 2006, 21:23
Posts: 1263
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Peake,

Could you recommended a good website for calculating radiator sizes/heat loss? A number of rather basic ones come up on a Google search, probably worse than a guestimate.

Also, when a radiator is rated at, say 1kw, is that the "normal" output based on a set criteria - flow rate and water temp? Do you know what these figures are?

If you're using a convection system with a backboiler, I'd imagine these figures would be difficult to calculate? I presume in these circumstances the larger the radiator the better, as they can always be turned down?

Thanks,

Sorry 5 questions in one post,

Iain


01 Feb 2008, 00:40
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Joined: 21 May 2004, 20:17
Posts: 6268
Location: Plouasne, Dept 22 & abit further East than Jennie
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Ian,

First excuse the answers in the box

Iain wrote:
Peake,

Could you recommended a good website for calculating radiator sizes/heat loss? A number of rather basic ones come up on a Google search, probably worse than a guestimate. [i]PM me with your e-mail address and I will send you a PDF file with most normal building construction "U" values, and how to work out the rad size etc[/i]

Also, when a radiator is rated at, say 1kw, is that the "normal" output based on a set criteria - flow rate and water temp? Do you know what these figures are? Normally the manufacturers use a temperature difference of 60°c between the median temperature of the water in the rad and the temperature of the room, some use a different set of figures but should give a conversion table, if not I can send you one, also the difference in the connections makes a slight difference in heat output, the same as if the rad is covered or in a casing, I can send you a conversion factor table if needed

If you're using a convection system with a backboiler, I'd imagine these figures would be difficult to calculate? I presume in these circumstances the larger the radiator the better, as they can always be turned down? No you size the boiler to your heat requirements; heat lost through walls windows floors ceilings etc and air change per hour, based on what temperature you want in that room, and the outside temperature you use as a base, normally minus 5°c but depending on location this could be lower, I also work on 3 complete air changes per hour, which is a bit higher than recommended for some rooms, this when done for each room will give you the heat required for each room, you then take the rad with the closest heat output to the required heat load which will fit in the area you want to fit the rad, go to the next standard size above for heat out put not below, these when totaled together will give you your boiler size convention is that you then add 10% to cover any days when the outside temperature is below the base

Thanks,

Sorry 5 questions in one post,

Iain


Forgot to say that the "U" values are genuine "U" values and have the UK's goverment approval


01 Feb 2008, 01:28
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Joined: 04 Feb 2004, 18:51
Posts: 529
Location: Hautefort 24
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A slightly less technical response:

Rads. in France are rated for delta T of 50 degrees and they sometimes include the 60degree rating as well. With back boilers on solid fuel boilers it is difficult to regulate the circulating temperature (even if using a 3/4 way valve) but it is also important not to oversize the rad. too much. For a house insulated to modern standards a simple rad. size formula is for living rooms: Volume of room in cubic metres x 51 = rad. size in Watts (use 41 for bedrooms). If your house is not perfectly insulated you will need to do full heat loss calculations and usually add 10% when using a solid fuel boiler. Rating the boiler is also very important as manufacturers tend to quote maximum outputs. For wood fired systems I always de-rate the boiler by 25%. So if the boiler claims an output of 15kW I wouldn't connect more than 10kW of rads. which also allows for about 10% heat loss from the pipework.

It is very important that you don't overrun the boiler. Also, you cannot fit thermostatic rad. valves when using a solid fuel boiler.


01 Feb 2008, 08:48
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Joined: 31 Aug 2005, 20:25
Posts: 1311
Location: Charente/Limousin border
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Charles wrote:
Also, you cannot fit thermostatic rad. valves when using a solid fuel boiler.

Errr. well we have and they work fine. What's the thinking behind that? Not too technical please!!! :D


01 Feb 2008, 10:50
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Joined: 20 Jul 2005, 22:15
Posts: 1723
Location: Buxières-les-Mines, 03 Allier
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Don't you get snotty with me, Peake. You've given me excellent advice in the past and what's more, I've taken it.

I have already worked out my room sizes, complete with adjustments for insulation levels - thanks to your previous postings on how to do this - and know exactly what kilowattage I need for each room. My question was not intended for comparisons between my house and somebody else's, but simply to ask WHO HAD PUT IN WHAT MAKE OF STOVE AND DID THEY LIKE IT.

There are many woodstoves about, priced from reasonable to horrendous. As a rank amateur I don't know how each make and model compares with another, but wanted recommendations - NOT from suppliers, but from people who are USING THEM RIGHT NOW. Even you, an expert in your field, haven't lived with all the 14-16kw woodstoves that are on the market, right?

Your advice is invaluable to anyone trying to figure out how to fix up their plumbing and we've all benefited from it no end in the past, but please have the courtesy to curb your impatience with what you see as amateur bumblings.


01 Feb 2008, 11:00
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Joined: 02 Mar 2007, 11:08
Posts: 661
Location: 41 Loir et Cher
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I was going to post a little, creepy, humble remark to the effect that the question was not what kind, how big or whatever BUT who was using what and what they thought of it......but you got there first Crisp.
Can't help because although we love our SCAN woodburner dearly, it doesn't run radiators, just keeps us warm. However would be interested in others experiences as when we extend the house we are thinking of having a woodburner that will run radiators - but I have a prejudice against Godins.


01 Feb 2008, 11:18
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Joined: 21 May 2004, 20:17
Posts: 6268
Location: Plouasne, Dept 22 & abit further East than Jennie
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gillmcg wrote:
Charles wrote:
Also, you cannot fit thermostatic rad. valves when using a solid fuel boiler.

Errr. well we have and they work fine. What's the thinking behind that? Not too technical please!!! :D


Where does all that heat go if the thermostatic rad valves are satisfied and close, either up the expansion pipe and into the expansion tank as gobs of boiling water and steam (that's why an expansion tank should be made of metal and not plastic, to stop it melting) or it boils the water in the boiler resulting in the boiler "dancing" banging in the boiler and possibly boiler failure (sometimes explosively), the same can happen if there is a power cut or the pump fails, all solid fuel appliances should be fitted with an unvalved radiator on a gravity circulation part of the system to help dissapate the heat in case of pump failure


01 Feb 2008, 11:20
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Joined: 20 Jul 2005, 22:15
Posts: 1723
Location: Buxières-les-Mines, 03 Allier
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Thanks for your replies so far, especially gillmcg and Charles.

gillmcg - I'd be very interested to know exactly how much wood you have used during this winter, and also how you got the Sumo over here?

Charles - If I ran domestic hot water from the stove as well as radiators, could I use thermostatic valves on the rads for the smaller rooms?

For the technically minded, here's what I need to heat:

Sitting room 104 m3
Seven other rooms of 31 m3, 20m3, 20 m3, 20 m3, 21 m3 28 m3 and 21 m3.

The sitting room will have the woodburner in it, and this is where the most heat is required. All the other rooms are to be low background heat only, hence the need for thermo valves. Advice please as to whether I need to put a radiator in the sitting room as well as the stove.

Obviously I need a very big stove, 16 kw at least and possibly that will be struggling. Any advice much appreciated.

And yes, it was me asking if anyone with space in a van could pick up a stove, loo and basin. Whatever make I buy, it will need to be delivered to a friend of mine in Lancashire/Yorkshire who can store it until it's collected at somebody's leisure, but no make has yet been chosen because of all the conflicting advice and prices and it's for that reason that I'm once again asking for help. NOT from some erk at B and Q either, just people who have installed a system like this and find it works well.

I've got a limited amount of capital to spend on important stuff like heating. There are many stoves out there of this big capacity, but they all claim the same abilities and vary wildly in price. If I can get a cheaper one that will do as well as the most expensive I'll be delighted, but I don't want to buy a cheapo that doesn't do the job. Makes sense?

All (kindly) contributions gratefully received.


01 Feb 2008, 16:18
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Joined: 21 May 2004, 20:17
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Location: Plouasne, Dept 22 & abit further East than Jennie
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Crisp,

For the life of me I canot see your reasoning that it is cheaper to buy a w/c and wash hand basin in theUK, I have just priced B&Q and Castorama, both in the same group of companies

The cheapest price I can find in B&Q's sale, sale mind you, not standard price is their valencia w/c and wash hand basin with pedistal, no taps waste etc, is £197.57p
Whilst in Castorama there is 3 w/c packs, €36.90; €59.00; €69.00,
the wash hand basins with pedistal, are €32.50; €39.90; €53.30
Takeing the deares of the 3 this works out to €122.30 @£0.80p to the euro this comes to £97.84p just a tad under £100.00 saveing if brought in France


01 Feb 2008, 21:54
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